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Secret Bambino

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Mar 21, 2021
2,930
With the ongoing discussion about iterative sequels, ex-Bioware director Mark Darrah talks about the value of having a strong foundation for a game, and iterating upon the previous game's design and technology. On that topic, he uses the 2007 - 2014 era of Bioware (what many consider the "golden age" of Bioware) as an example of the advantages of this strategy. Namely the fact that ME2 and ME3 were very iterative sequels of ME, and as such, were able to have the same development time gap between releases (27 months between ME1 and ME2, 26 months between ME2 and ME3).


View: https://youtu.be/1oPK8TR2Fns

For a lot of people, 2007 - 2014 mark a Golden Age for BioWare.
This is the time period of the Mass Effect trilogy and the first 3 Dragon Age games
Is this a real thing? How much of this period is built upon the long period of time BEFORE the start of these games?
What's a "TRUE" sequel, and why do I say it so many times?
 

Kromis

Member
Oct 29, 2017
6,517
SoCal
I saw "Ex-Bioware director" and I already knew it was going to be Mike Mark Darrah and probably something from his channel. I think you can throw his name in the title next time around. Love his insights.
 
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Secret Bambino

Secret Bambino

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Mar 21, 2021
2,930
fucking hanging us MDK2 fans out to dry

Man, I keep forgetting that Bioware developed MDK2. What a weird piece of trivia.

I saw "Ex-Bioware director" and I already knew it was going to be Mike Darrah and probably something from his channel. I think you can throw his name in the title next time around. Love his insights.

Heh, gotta use tabloid strats to farm more engagement.
Seriously though, I considered putting his name, but was afraid that people would not recognize him. Anyway, I love his channel too!
 

Phellps

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,816
I watched this earlier today and it's great. I do hope BioWare goes back to this kind of sequel for future Dragon Age and Mass Effect titles. Waiting over 4 years for every new game they make has been crazy.
 

Fat4all

Woke up, got a money tag, swears a lot
Member
Oct 25, 2017
93,052
here
Man, I keep forgetting that Bioware developed MDK2. What a weird piece of trivia.
i like knowing the fun facts and deep cuts about devs

like when monolith made a mecha anime game

441b53b479d2c2173d3172108ffd4591-1200-80.jpg
 

Crossing Eden

Member
Oct 26, 2017
53,406
I think he means DLC/Expansion?
No he means iterative sequels. Sequels like the various trilogies were able to get within four-five years during the 360/ps3 generation. The video is about the value of iteration over mass overhauling everything. He defines "true" sequels as sequels that use the foundation that came before for iteration wherein it's not a totally different game but the foundation makes development much smoother as faster, as with a solid foundation there's a lot you can do with a sequel without having to build everything from scratch. Especially when it comes to the structure of a game. As an example ME2 and ME1 are two very different feeling games due to just how differently they're structured and because of small changes to the gameplay that gave it more of a TPS feel, along with a shift in the tone of the game. AC2's devs bragged at length about how having the first game's toolset as a foundation made the sequel possible and we now have like, three different AC trilogies that were developed with a similar mindset. He somewhat laments that DA4 and the next ME are gonna once again be overhauls because that in and of itself is contributing to how long they're taking to develop.
 
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Spehornoob

Member
Nov 15, 2017
8,948
This is why the "looks like DLC" discourse we see more and more of is so ridiculous. Some of the best sequels of all time are as good as they are because they build on an already strong foundation. FROM has been iterating on the Souls formula for 13 years, and it evolved the series from a completely niche product in Demon's Souls to one of the biggest hits of the year in Elden Ring. Not to mention the more efficient output that iterating rather than rebuilding can lead to.
 

Mubrik_

Member
Dec 7, 2017
2,726
No he means iterative sequels. Sequels like the various trilogies were able to get within four-five years during the 360/ps3 generation.
I think that was a reference to some users calling a sequel 'dlc'?

This is why the "looks like DLC" discourse we see more and more of is so ridiculous. Some of the best sequels of all time are as good as they are because they build on an already strong foundation. FROM has been iterating on the Souls formula for 13 years, and it evolved the series from a completely niche product in Demon's Souls to one of the biggest hits of the year in Elden Ring. Not to mention the more efficient output that iterating rather than rebuilding can lead to.

Spot on.
 

anexanhume

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,914
Maryland
I think he means DLC/Expansion?
Their recent games have migrated engines, changed major systems, core gameplay, etc. He's talking about something that may feel like DLC/expansion, but with its own complete narrative and set of characters.

I have loved seeing Darrah's insight into the process and it has shown that while one person may "get it" in terms of what needs to change for development, it doesn't mean they alone can will it into existence.
 

jonjonaug

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,676
No he means iterative sequels. Sequels like the various trilogies were able to get within four-five years during the 360/ps3 generation.
Looking back it's kind of insane how Bioware released six large-sized AAA RPGs and an MMO in the span of about 7 years.

And then they released one over the next eight years after that cause of Anthem (and the "live service" craze in general), which bombed.
 

Crossing Eden

Member
Oct 26, 2017
53,406
Looking back it's kind of insane how Bioware released six large-sized AAA RPGs and an MMO in the span of about 7 years.

And then they released one over the next eight years after that cause of Anthem (and the "live service" craze in general), which bombed.
Yea read my edit where I expanded on how that happened.
 

Extra Sauce

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,927
wasn't Majora's Mask made in one year? so many recycled assets to meet that time table, and it's one of the best video games ever made.
 

Kill3r7

Member
Oct 25, 2017
24,451
I watched this earlier today and it's great. I do hope BioWare goes back to this kind of sequel for future Dragon Age and Mass Effect titles. Waiting over 4 years for every new game they make has been crazy.

They spent a ton of time making and absolute dud and ME:A was a disappointment. So there was a lot of changes and soul searching going on.
 

Fisty

Member
Oct 25, 2017
20,247
Hard to argue that, but I think mixing things up and spacing out releases is really important too. Stagnation hits hard when you don't spend enough time in pre production because of the IP treadmill like with AC and COD. Compare that to stuff like GTA/RDR or FF games, heck even Bethesda stuff. Those gen 7 trilogies were generally stale by the third game
 

Crossing Eden

Member
Oct 26, 2017
53,406
Hard to argue that, but I think mixing things up and spacing out releases is really important too. Stagnation hits hard when you don't spend enough time in pre production because of the IP treadmill like with AC and COD. Compare that to stuff like GTA/RDR or FF games, heck even Bethesda stuff. Those gen 7 trilogies were generally stale by the third game
Now unless a dev was crunching HARD, had a the gargantuan workforce of Ubisoft, or both, no dev in the industry is really capable of like, putting out three ME sized games with four years. Games got way more complex last gen, and along with higher production values, that means that on average AAA games take longer to make. Even iterative sequels need more time in the oven than before. Let alone the big tech overhauls and/or the new IP.
 

disparate

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
7,904
No he means iterative sequels. Sequels like the various trilogies were able to get within four-five years during the 360/ps3 generation. The video is about the value of iteration over mass overhauling everything. He defines "true" sequels as sequels that use the foundation that came before for iteration wherein it's not a totally different game but the foundation makes development much smoother as faster, as with a solid foundation there's a lot you can do with a sequel without having to build everything from scratch. Especially when it comes to the structure of a game. As an example ME2 and ME1 are two very different feeling games due to just how differently they're structured and because of small changes to the gameplay that gave it more of a TPS feel, along with a shift in the tone of the game. AC2's devs bragged at length about how having the first game's toolset as a foundation made the sequel possible and we now have like, three different AC trilogies that were developed with a similar mindset. He somewhat laments that DA4 and the next ME are gonna once again be overhauls because that in and of itself is contributing to how long they're taking to develop.
He has an angry video lamenting about what you can infer to be the Andromeda team not reusing the tools developed for Inquisition and it blowing up in their face.
 

Xeonidus

“Fuck them kids.”
Member
Oct 28, 2017
4,279
No he means iterative sequels. Sequels like the various trilogies were able to get within four-five years during the 360/ps3 generation. The video is about the value of iteration over mass overhauling everything. He defines "true" sequels as sequels that use the foundation that came before for iteration wherein it's not a totally different game but the foundation makes development much smoother as faster, as with a solid foundation there's a lot you can do with a sequel without having to build everything from scratch. Especially when it comes to the structure of a game. As an example ME2 and ME1 are two very different feeling games due to just how differently they're structured and because of small changes to the gameplay that gave it more of a TPS feel, along with a shift in the tone of the game. AC2's devs bragged at length about how having the first game's toolset as a foundation made the sequel possible and we now have like, three different AC trilogies that were developed with a similar mindset. He somewhat laments that DA4 and the next ME are gonna once again be overhauls because that in and of itself is contributing to how long they're taking to develop.

No, he makes it very clear he's talking about the first 3 Mass Effect and Dragon Age games.

Their recent games have migrated engines, changed major systems, core gameplay, etc. He's talking about something that may feel like DLC/expansion, but with its own complete narrative and set of characters.

I have loved seeing Darrah's insight into the process and it has shown that while one person may "get it" in terms of what needs to change for development, it doesn't mean they alone can will it into existence.
Yeah, I should have put /s lol.

I was just poking fun at the narrative that recent games like God of War Ragnarok and Forbidden West look like DLC/Expansions from people who don't really know what game development is like. It dismisses the hard work that goes into these projects.

This is why the "looks like DLC" discourse we see more and more of is so ridiculous. Some of the best sequels of all time are as good as they are because they build on an already strong foundation. FROM has been iterating on the Souls formula for 13 years, and it evolved the series from a completely niche product in Demon's Souls to one of the biggest hits of the year in Elden Ring. Not to mention the more efficient output that iterating rather than rebuilding can lead to.
Bingo.
 
Oct 25, 2017
3,369
Canada
Always enjoy Mark Darrah's videos, so I'll give this watch!

I've always found the individual entries in the Mass Effect trilogy to all feel pretty different than each other, especially compared to it's other contemporaries in the 360 era. Something like the Gears of War and Uncharted games are clearly iterative, whereas Mass Effect felt like it was rebuilding itself with each game.
 

Fisty

Member
Oct 25, 2017
20,247
Now unless a dev was crunching HARD, had a the gargantuan workforce of Ubisoft, or both, no dev in the industry is really capable of like, putting out three ME sized games with four years. Games got way more complex last gen, and along with higher production values, that means that on average AAA games take longer to make. Even iterative sequels need more time in the oven than before. Let alone the big tech overhauls and/or the new IP.

Kinda makes you wonder what kind of dungeons SEGA has in order to keep RGG Studio on schedule
 

Spring-Loaded

Member
Oct 27, 2017
19,904
This is why the "looks like DLC" discourse we see more and more of is so ridiculous. Some of the best sequels of all time are as good as they are because they build on an already strong foundation. FROM has been iterating on the Souls formula for 13 years, and it evolved the series from a completely niche product in Demon's Souls to one of the biggest hits of the year in Elden Ring. Not to mention the more efficient output that iterating rather than rebuilding can lead to.

yup. No one needs every game to be built from scratch and have completely revolutionary game design.

As a fan of Star Fox, I wish any one of that series' entires had been allowed to have iterative sequels.
 

Son of Sparda

The Wise Ones
Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,624
Very good video. I had no idea Darrah had his own channel, I should follow and watch more of his videos.
He has an angry video lamenting about what you can infer to be the Andromeda team not reusing the tools developed for Inquisition and it blowing up in their face.
That sounds like an interesting watch. Do you have a link?
 

ILikeFeet

DF Deet Master
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
61,987
imagine, a Bioware where they didn't throw out their work on Dragon Age Inquisition and built off of it to make Anthem and Mass Effect Andromeda. having a solid tech stack might not have completely saved those games, but that would be one piece of the puzzle solved for them
 

ToddBonzalez

The Pyramids? That's nothing compared to RDR2
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
15,530
I saw "Ex-Bioware director" and I already knew it was going to be Mike Mark Darrah and probably something from his channel. I think you can throw his name in the title next time around. Love his insights.
Yeah his channel is quite good. One of the only places to get some perspective on gaming topics from someone who's shipped successful games rather than just random pundits or influencers who comment on this stuff but don't really know what they're talking about.
 

Crossing Eden

Member
Oct 26, 2017
53,406
He has an angry video lamenting about what you can infer to be the Andromeda team not reusing the tools developed for Inquisition and it blowing up in their face.
Yea that definitely contributed to the state of that game. The AC Odyssey team had the exact opposite energy cause they concurrently developed their game alongside Origins and used that to focus on what their specific project needed and give those things the polish it needs. Like the automated conversation system or the iterative improvements to AI that were inspired by BOTW.

imagine, a Bioware where they didn't throw out their work on Dragon Age Inquisition and built off of it to make Anthem and Mass Effect Andromeda. having a solid tech stack might not have completely saved those games, but that would be one piece of the puzzle solved for them
It's still crazy that the studios didn't collaborate on those projects.
 

ToddBonzalez

The Pyramids? That's nothing compared to RDR2
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
15,530
Always enjoy Mark Darrah's videos, so I'll give this watch!

I've always found the individual entries in the Mass Effect trilogy to all feel pretty different than each other, especially compared to it's other contemporaries in the 360 era. Something like the Gears of War and Uncharted games are clearly iterative, whereas Mass Effect felt like it was rebuilding itself with each game.
Mass Effect 2 and 3 are similar in most ways. They definitely made a large iteration on combat and some gameplay systems between 1 and 2 though.
 

Madao

One Winged Slayer
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
4,697
Panama
Splatoon 3 setting the record of the highest opening in the history of gaming in japan is another good example of the value of iterative sequels.
 

disparate

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
7,904
It's still crazy that the studios didn't collaborate on those projects.
If you were to believe him, it seems like he really tried. Like, Inquisition shipped in 2014, it makes sense why it uses Frostbite given how young the generation was, but when BioWare Montreal and the Anthem team had the option of either: rebuilding all of their tools on UE, reusing Inquisition tools, or rebuilding tools on Frostbite, they chose to rebuild tools on Frostbite and reject help???? Like rejection two tech stacks and choosing to redo it all is madness.
 

Enduin

You look 40
Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,492
New York
I'm all for it and really hope they can do that again with ME4. While 2 year turnaround is probably not realistic these days for major AAA titles, and realistically wasn't then either given the issues ME3 had due to rushed development, you could probably still manage 3-4 today if you really wanted. If not for COVID that probably would have been the case for Horizon FW and is still somewhat true for GoW:R. Though obviously if you got the Ubisoft route of like a dozen or more studios all working in parallel/tandem you can speed this all up a ton, but no one else is really setup like that. And their assembly line style development is not without its issues.

Still iterative sequels can also just be more enjoyable from a players perspective because if the core gameplay is solid that nuance and familiarity can go a long way if they can sufficiently build upon that base. You can refine and improve what was there, but then add more depth and nuance to it. And that's before you get to benefits like having a game sooner and being able to tell a cohesive narrative over multiple games in a timely fashion.

Even after all this time replaying the series for the nth time with MELE going from ME2 to ME3 is such a big, but clearly iterative, leap combat wise. In some ways as big as the leap from ME1 to ME2 despite not being the same kind of fundamental change to how things operate. It just feels like such a big leap because of how much tighter its controls are, the much wider build options, the expanded synergy of combat abilities for power combos, and other changes and tweaks. Even just minor but impactful additions like dodge roll and heavy melee attacks really help to round out the experience. It's just a ton of smart tweaks and additions that manage to make the whole experience, while still fundamentally the same, feel that much more robust.

And that holds true elsewhere like the location and skybox design is just so damn good in ME3. ME2 again kind of set the mold after figuring out what didn't work in ME1. But it was a bit too artificial at times with its location designs. But then ME3 has so many gorgeous locations that also function as great combat areas and with vistas that are insane. Like the opening scene of Earth is still a sight to see with all the Reapers around you just wrecking the city.

It's still crazy that the studios didn't collaborate on those projects.
I always got the feeling that the apparent toxic relation between Edmonton and Montreal offices with the whole A-Squad vs B-Squad mentality that those at Edmonton apparently gave off and treated them like may have lead Montreal to feel like they needed to go it alone as it were to prove they were equals to the main office and could make as good a game from scratch and in doing so arrogantly ignored important tools and systems already completed for DAI in Frostbite.

It's unfortunate as there were some really great things done in Andromeda, but it's bogged down by so much bad design and weird systems, and of course was deeply marred by a very buggy and unpolished launch that doomed the game from ever getting a second chance or real post launch support besides basic patching.
 

OrangePulp

Member
Jul 21, 2020
1,756
Great video. Ironically I prefer the first game in both the highlighted trilogies, but Baldur's Gate 2 is amazing, and it also clearly benefits from this. 'True' sequels, as he defines them, have such a big advantage.



I like how he gives a reasonable-sounding explanation about why a feature might be redesigned instead of reused... and then immediately shows his frustration by outlining the real priority which is 'shipped'. I really wonder what those discussions sounded like...

If you were to believe him, it seems like he really tried. Like, Inquisition shipped in 2014, it makes sense why it uses Frostbite given how young the generation was, but when BioWare Montreal and the Anthem team had the option of either: rebuilding all of their tools on UE, reusing Inquisition tools, or rebuilding tools on Frostbite, they chose to rebuild tools on Frostbite and reject help???? Like rejection two tech stacks and choosing to redo it all is madness.

From what I recall, there was a big push from EA that everything they made was going to use Frostbite, because it was their own in-house engine. So, UE was off the table. And also during this period they were changing FIFA over to frostbite because of this, and FIFA sucked up most of the resources that DICE had for helping other developers. Of course that really just exacerbates how foolish it was to not reuse their own studio's previous work; I don't think Frostbite was very easy to use for anything that wasn't a straight shooter like battlefield.

Of course Andromeda probably had more going on with it than just not reusing tech; they spent a bunch of time on a random planet generation system, that ultimately didn't work and was thrown away.
 

disparate

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
7,904
From what I recall, there was a big push from EA that everything they made was going to use Frostbite, because it was their own in-house engine. So, UE was off the table. And also during this period they were changing FIFA over to frostbite because of this, and FIFA sucked up most of the resources that DICE had for helping other developers. Of course that really just exacerbates how foolish it was to not reuse their own studio's previous work; I don't think Frostbite was very easy to use for anything that wasn't a straight shooter like battlefield.

Of course Andromeda probably had more going on with it than just not reusing tech; they spent a bunch of time on a random planet generation system, that ultimately didn't work and was thrown away.
Between RPG systems being already made in Inquisition and Frostbite already having support for shooters, Andromeda should have been a slam dunk tbh and yet...
 
Oct 27, 2017
8,620
yup. No one needs every game to be built from scratch and have completely revolutionary game design.

As a fan of Star Fox, I wish any one of that series' entires had been allowed to have iterative sequels.
The sonic series suffere from this as well
People rag in the new super mario Bros games but id take them over post 2010 sonic any day
 

ILikeFeet

DF Deet Master
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
61,987
From what I recall, there was a big push from EA that everything they made was going to use Frostbite, because it was their own in-house engine. So, UE was off the table. And also during this period they were changing FIFA over to frostbite because of this, and FIFA sucked up most of the resources that DICE had for helping other developers. Of course that really just exacerbates how foolish it was to not reuse their own studio's previous work; I don't think Frostbite was very easy to use for anything that wasn't a straight shooter like battlefield.

Of course Andromeda probably had more going on with it than just not reusing tech; they spent a bunch of time on a random planet generation system, that ultimately didn't work and was thrown away.
Bioware keeps reiterating that Frostbite was their own choice. how much of that is true or not, we'll probably never know. regardless, we're seeing the results of those failures and Respawn's success. Dragon Age will be the last Bioware Frostbite game. that means they'll go through this whole process again. let's just hope that Mass Effect 5's development lays enough groundwork for reuse
 

OrangePulp

Member
Jul 21, 2020
1,756
The sonic series suffere from this as well
People rag in the new super mario Bros games but id take them over post 2010 sonic any day

Yeah, and Sonic's foundation was built on the iterative improvements of sonic 1 > 2 > 3 + K.

Bioware keeps reiterating that Frostbite was their own choice. how much of that is true or not, we'll probably never know. regardless, we're seeing the results of those failures and Respawn's success. Dragon Age will be the last Bioware Frostbite game. that means they'll go through this whole process again. let's just hope that Mass Effect 5's development lays enough groundwork for reuse

Oh do they? I just have vague recollections about troubled Andromeda development from some articles years ago. The part about FIFA basically bogarting resources (well, just that they were the clear priority because $$$) does stick in my mind though; I wonder if they were promised more help than they ended up getting.
 

Exposure

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,656
I always got the feeling that the apparent toxic relation between Edmonton and Montreal offices with the whole A-Squad vs B-Squad mentality that those at Edmonton apparently gave off and treated them like may have lead Montreal to feel like they needed to go it alone as it were to prove they were equals to the main office and could make as good a game from scratch and in doing so arrogantly ignored important tools and systems already completed for DAI in Frostbite.
I mean

with the Anthem antecdotes out there about Bioware Austin (the SWTOR people) desperately pointing out obvious issues Anthem had because of their online game experience but getting ignored by what was the ME side of Bioware Edmonton, I feel like there's a decent chance the cause of fault was the other way around
 

Enduin

You look 40
Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,492
New York
I mean

with the Anthem antecdotes out there about Bioware Austin (the SWTOR people) desperately pointing out obvious issues Anthem had because of their online game experience but getting ignored by what was the ME side of Bioware Edmonton, I feel like there's a decent chance the cause of fault was the other way around
But that's what I mean. Montreal had an inferiority complex due to Edmonton treating them like the B Squad. And then that same superior attitude made Edmonton feel like they knew better than Austin because they were again just another satellite studio and not the big boys who had created ME and DA.
 

ShiftyCow

Member
Nov 4, 2017
470
From the comments:
8KjYgM0d_o.png

We didn't know that did we? I think the most we knew about Inquisition's sales was that it was the best selling Bioware game.
 

Exposure

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,656
But that's what I mean. Montreal had an inferiority complex due to Edmonton treating them like the B Squad. And then that same superior attitude made Edmonton feel like they knew better than Austin because they were again just another satellite studio and not the big boys who had created ME and DA.

...no

I mean I'm postulating the idea that the problem was with the OG ME team the entire time

espeically since I vaguely recall (it's been a long while since i botherd watching any videos/reading articles about it) that they did have Edmonton staff transfer over to Andromeda and that caused friction with the Montreal staff

Anthem and the absurdity of ignoring what the Bioware Austin people were saying just made it clear enough that the possiblity of "maybe the ME Edmonton team just had major issues the whole time" is perhaps one that shouldn't be easily dismissed instead of immediately going "well ok obviously it was the new people at fault here".
 

Enduin

You look 40
Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,492
New York
...no

I mean I'm postulating the idea that the problem was with the OG ME team the entire time

espeically since I vaguely recall (it's been a long while since i botherd watching any videos/reading articles about it) that they did have Edmonton staff transfer over to Andromeda and that caused friction with the Montreal staff

Anthem and the absurdity of ignoring what the Bioware Austin people were saying just made it clear enough that the possiblity of "maybe the ME Edmonton team just had major issues the whole time" is perhaps one that shouldn't be easily dismissed instead of immediately going "well ok obviously it was the new people at fault here".
We're basically saying the same thing here, but related to different areas. I'm focusing on the fact that Edmonton fostered a toxic relationship with their satellite studios and what may have resulted from that and you're focusing on the fact that Edmonton wasn't as perfect a development team as they thought. Those aren't contradictory or incompatible theories. Both can and are to a degree true and directly relate/feed into one another. Whether the initial choice to ignore DAI's work with Frostbite was with Montreal alone or after people from Edmonton joined on is uncertain, but they still had a bad relationship and rocky development cycle in part because of Edmonton's lackluster leadership by all accounts. Same for the relationship with Austin. Edmonton thought they knew better, but they were clearly wrong in that assumption and suffered for not heading the advice and expertise of the one team that had extensive online/live service multiplayer experience. All roads lead back to Edmonton in either of our speculation.
 
Oct 27, 2017
6,400
Melbourne, Australia
I will always be okay with getting some iterative sequels if the quality (and/or quantity) of content is high. Obviously there comes a time after some iterative sequels that everyone needs something fresh but if iteration means I get more of something I like sooner (at a potentially higher quality than what came before to boot) I'm all for it.

Sure, have your own personal sense of value and what you want to spend your money on but "This sequel is just overpriced DLC" more often proves to be dismissive bullshit than apt criticism.
 

platocplx

2020 Member Elect
Member
Oct 30, 2017
36,072
This is why the "looks like DLC" discourse we see more and more of is so ridiculous. Some of the best sequels of all time are as good as they are because they build on an already strong foundation. FROM has been iterating on the Souls formula for 13 years, and it evolved the series from a completely niche product in Demon's Souls to one of the biggest hits of the year in Elden Ring. Not to mention the more efficient output that iterating rather than rebuilding can lead to.
Yep exactly many people think games need to be from scratch with their sequels and honestly what sequels should embody is the best from the first game and build on new concepts scope etc in the sequel.